Curse

JoeKnowMo · Feb 12, 2007, 12:31 PM // 12:31

I stole Cow's build - made a few modifications - and replaced a ranger with a paragon battery with some dps. I expect that it's a significant improvement. Maybe not. You be the judge.

1. W/E: Axe Mastery 12 + 1 + 3, Strength 8 + 1, Tactics 10 + 1, Air Magic 2

[skill]Shock[/skill] [skill]Frenzy[/skill] [skill]Rush[/skill] [skill]Bull's Strike[/skill] [skill]Eviscerate[/skill] [skill]Executioner's Strike[/skill] [skill]Healing Signet[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

2. W/A: Sword Mastery 12 + 1 + 3, Strength 8 + 1, Tactics 10 + 1

[skill]Frenzy[/skill] [skill]Sever Artery[/skill] [skill]Gash[/skill] [skill]Sun And Moon Slash[/skill] [skill]Dragon Slash[/skill] [skill]Bull's Strike[/skill] [skill]Rush[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

3. Me/N: Illusion Magic 12 + 1 + 1, Inspiration 10 + 1, Fast Casting 8 + 1, Healing Prayers 5

[skill]Images Of Remorse[/skill] [skill]Conjure Phantasm[/skill] [skill]Mantra of Persistence[/skill] [skill]Signet Of Humility[/skill] [skill]Spirit Of Failure[/skill] [skill]Power Drain[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill] [skill]Migraine[/skill] or [skill]Expel Hexes[/skill]

4. N/Mo: Soul Reaping 12 + 1 + 1, Curses 12 + 1, Protection Prayers 3

[skill]Reaper's Mark[/skill] [skill]Signet Of Lost Souls[/skill] [skill]Parasitic Bond[/skill] [skill]Faintheartedness[/skill] [skill]Price Of Failure[/skill] [skill]Shadow Of Fear[/skill] [skill]Draw Conditions[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

5. R/Mo - Flag Runner: Marksmanship 10 + 1, Expertise 11 + 1 + 3, Wilderness Survival 8 + 1, Protection Prayers 6

[skill]Screaming Shot[/skill] [skill]Crippling Shot[/skill] [skill]Savage Shot[/skill] [skill]Distracting Shot[/skill] [skill]Apply Poison[/skill] [skill]Mending Touch[/skill] [skill]Natural Stride[/skill] [skill]Troll Unguent[/skill]

6. Mo/E: Protection Prayers 11 + 1 + 1, Divine Favor 11 + 1, Healing Prayers 8 + 1

[skill]Glyph Of Lesser Energy[/skill] [skill]Aegis[/skill] [skill]Restore Condition[/skill] [skill]Gift Of Health[/skill] [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill] [skill]Shield Of Absorption[/skill] [skill]Reversal Of Fortune[/skill] [skill]Signet Of Devotion[/skill]

7. Mo/E: Healing Prayers 11 + 1 + 1, Divine Favor 11 + 1, Protection Prayers 8 + 1

[skill]Glyph Of Lesser Energy[/skill] [skill]Aegis[/skill] [skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill] [skill]Light Of Deliverance[/skill] [skill]Infuse Health[/skill] [skill]Reversal Of Fortune[/skill] [skill]Signet Of Devotion[/skill] [skill]Holy Veil[/skill]

8. P/Rt: Motivation 10 + 1 + 3, Leadership 11 + 1, Spear Mastery 10 + 1

[skill]"The Power is Yours!"[/skill] [skill]Aria Of Zeal[/skill] [skill]Lyric Of Zeal[/skill] [skill]Signet Of Synergy[/skill] [skill]Energizing Chorus[/skill] [skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill] [skill]Anthem of Flame[/skill] [skill]Barbed Spear[/skill]

All the builds are self-explanatory except the paragon. So I'll explain the paragon's role in some detail.

Get your adrenaline up to atleast 3 strikes. Use Aria of Zeal, followed by PiY!, then Lyric of Zeal (when it's charged), followed by Signet of Synergy. When Energizing Chorus is charged use it. Use Anthem of Flame whenever it's charged. Repeat the cycle. You should be at close to max energy by the end of the cycle. Use Barbed Spear on different foes to spread bleeding.

Despite the energy degen from PiY!, you should have no energy problems due to the energy gain from the adrenaline chants and the signet.

You can repeat the cycle around every 30s (or less) while giving your team an energy boost of 8 (PiY!) + 6 (Aria of Zeal if they use a spell) + 8 (Lyric of Zeal) if they use a signet. Assuming your casters use their signets while Lyric of Zeal is up, that's 22e every 30s for all 4 of them. If they don't use a signet but use a spell, they will gain 14e every 30s.

Notice that all 4 casters have a signet in their builds so they can take advantage of Lyric of Zeal.

If you were to cycle through every 30s the energy gain per second comes out to .73 if casters use a sig and .46 if they only use a spell. Compare that to the .48e gained per second using the elite MoR at 10 Inspiration and the energy gain seems quite high considering you're buffing 4 casters.

The warriors and the ranger will get 8e from PiY! and if the wars use Heal Sig they'll get another 8e.

- Some numbers: You lose 33e from the 10s of -10 e-degen. You gain 4e (10e - 8e + another 6e from leadership) from PiY!. You gain 20e from the 2 adrenaline chants + the signet. The chant you use following Energizing Chorus has its cost reduced by 7e. If it's a 10e chant, it becomes a 3e chant which gains you 6e from leadership resulting in a net gain of 3e. Anthem of Flame will gain you 1e back.
Energy lost = 33e
Energy gained = 4 + 20 + 3 + 1= 28e
Net loss = 5e [which is easily gained back from an adrenal shout]

Notes:
This build is significantly weakened against splits. Aegis will affect adrenaline gain for the paragon which can reduce the build's effectiveness too.

PiY will not drain your energy into the negative, so a negative energy offhand can come in handy.

I have tested the paragon build quite extensively so please don't respond with stuff like, "PiY! is crap" until you try it out for yourself.

By replacing a ranger with the paragon you lose the interrupts (dist shot, savage shot), the degen from apply poison, and either Crip Shot or Broad Head Arrow. However, you gain significant energy for your casters allowing them to spam hexes more and heal more. You also gain some degen from Anthem of Flame and Barbed Spear (and your casters spamming more degen hexes).

Comments and Feedback are welcome. In fact, I'll be more upset if you don't comment.

Edit: Made changes based on suggestions. Fixed stupid rune and attribute distribution.

Blame the Monks · Feb 12, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Sorry, but this is much worse than the original. It takes a similar theme and turns it from an offensive build to a defensive one (but a defensive build with 3 sigs and no hard res?). It also lacks enough hexes to stick. And what's with the random major runes?

#2 lacks a cancel stance. Also two heal sigs is probably overkill on a build with so much defense.

#3 pdrain > leech sig imo. Major?

#4 Way too much in prot, waste of a major rune.

#5 9 expertise on a cripshot O_O And screaming shot costs too much for that bar.

#6 Mending touch isn't needed on the RC when there is a draw in the build

#7 dismiss isn't needed on the RC when there is a draw + RC in the build

#8 why add a eman/defensive para at all? All this does is fuel the monks, which is a waste of a slot.

JR · Feb 12, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Not quite understanding what makes you think you have the experience to take a top 10 guilds build, and improve it.

romO · Feb 12, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Not quite understanding what makes you think you have the experience to take a top 10 guilds build, and improve it.

Have you seen obs mode? Everyone is doing it. Playing top guilds' builds is one thing, changing them intentionally to make them worse is... yeah...

JoeKnowMo · Feb 12, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Thanks for the comments, esp Blame the Monks.

I know it's blasphemy to mess around with a great build and I'll burn in the eternal flames of RoF for doing so.

@ JR and Tommy: I'm not trying to ruin a great build but I'm clearly doing so in your eyes.

Here's my thinking (which may be completely flawed): The casters (monks, mes, and nec) should be gaining the equivalent of 3 pips of e-regen for the entire duration of a match, if the paragon can cycle every 23s, which is quite easy to do.

I would think that improves both the defense and offense of the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Sorry, but this is much worse than the original. It takes a similar theme and turns it from an offensive build to a defensive one (but a defensive build with 3 sigs and no hard res?).

More defensive, yes. But I'm not sure how much offense is lost when: Anthem of Flame adds degen to the 2 wars' and the ranger's attacks, Mes and Nec are getting 22e back every 23s (if paragon is played right) allowing them to hex more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

It also lacks enough hexes to stick. And what's with the random major runes?

I could be mistaken but I didn't see Cow running any more hexes than what I've got. Also, giving them more energy means they can spam more hexes, thus making more of them stick.

Sry about the runes. Fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

#2 lacks a cancel stance. Also two heal sigs is probably overkill on a build with so much defense.

Doh. Added Rush, removed heal sig.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

#3 pdrain > leech sig imo. Major?

Swapped in pdrain for leech sig.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

#4 Way too much in prot, waste of a major rune.

Reduced prot. Fixed runes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

#5 9 expertise on a cripshot O_O And screaming shot costs too much for that bar.

Sry. Fixed. Used standard crip shot attributes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

#6 Mending touch isn't needed on the RC when there is a draw in the build

Replaced w rez sig.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

#7 dismiss isn't needed on the RC when there is a draw + RC in the build

I swore I saw dismiss on the LoD's bar. Not sure what to replace it with. Suggestions appreciated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

#8 why add a eman/defensive para at all? All this does is fuel the monks, which is a waste of a slot.

Fuels the monks, necros, and mes. Adds burning to wars and ranger attacks. The longer the battle goes, the greater your advantage should become due to the e-man para... unless, I'm missing something.

I may have to setup a more energy intensive team (replace wars w dervs maybe) for the e-man para to be more useful.

@ JR and Tommy: I would really appreciate more specific criticisms, esp w regard to the usefulness of the 3 pips of e-regen.

Franco Power · Feb 12, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Not quite understanding what makes you think you have the experience to take a top 10 guilds build, and improve it.

Not quite understanding what makes him think just because he has a top 10 guild build he can play it like them.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 13, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

why are you running res sig on a monk? Throw SoA or Shielding hands in there, because there are a lot better options to put on your monk than a res sig.

Also, I disagree with the RC not needing mending touch. If you have to split the RC off, he's going to go through hell with no self-condition removal. IF you ahve an extra slot mending touch is fine, but personally that build needs some form of cheap anti-pressure prot (SoA, shielding hands).

JR · Feb 13, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Ultimatum

Not quite understanding what makes him think just because he has a top 10 guild build he can play it like them.

Taking a top 10 guilds build is excellent advice for a newer guild. So what if they can't jump in and play it like them straight away - it's called practice and experience, things you gain over time.

Senator Tom · Feb 13, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Taking a top 10 guilds build is excellent advice for a newer guild. So what if they can't jump in and play it like them straight away - it's called practice and experience, things you gain over time.

it takes practice to improve builds too. sure, he should probably be improving a build that needs improvement though, cow ftw!

JR · Feb 13, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator Tom

it takes practice to improve builds too.

Which is exactly why you choose a top 10 guilds build in the first place, to avoid having to do that - when you don't have the experience to.

Blame the Monks · Feb 13, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

I know it's blasphemy to mess around with a great build and I'll burn in the eternal flames of RoF for doing so.

In fairness, let's not pretend this is a great build or a particularly original build. This build was slapped together in less than 30 seconds with almost no discussion about bars, synergy/strategy, or anything (which was obvious a few games into the night when we played a hex team and had one holy veil in the build and no other hex removal). It was just what people thought would be fun to run that night.

So by no means is this a well planned or perfect build. There is a LOT of room for refinement, so feel free to tinker regardless of the haters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Here's my thinking (which may be completely flawed): The casters (monks, mes, and nec) should be gaining the equivalent of 3 pips of e-regen for the entire duration of a match, if the paragon can cycle every 23s, which is quite easy to do.

I would think that improves both the defense and offense of the team.

IMO, you are overvaluing eman. In GvG (as opposed to tombs), the defense can compensate a lot for running low on energy with tactics to a large extent (quick tactical withdrawals, linebacking, etc). So even if your defense does run low, you can usually address it without having to spend many of your precious 64 skill slots on it. And if the defense does struggle to keep up, chances are an extra defensive toon (warder, snarer, blinder, interrupts, blah blah blah) would be more valuable than more eman for the existing defense.

On offense, the extra energy is only valuable if it fuels more offense (specifically, if it allows the hexes to power out more hexes). So the question is if the extra energy from the paragon makes those two existing hexers better than a third hexer would be. In this build, both the necro and the mesmer have substantial eman already (siget + soul reap, pdrain + sof). I don't run low on energy with the necro very often. The mesmer is trickier, but still limited as much by recharge as by energy. The burning and minor spear damage is ok, but I believe the overall offense is less than a third more self-sufficient toon would be.

Just as a rule of thumb too, cow always runs highly offensive, pressure based teams. Cow also always runs at least two physicals because physicals are by far the best pressure. The supporting offensive toons are often designed to facilitate the warriors and our offensive motif as much as anything. In this build, the degen is as much to scare them and force them to divert resources away from prots/offense as is is to kill (degen never kills alone unless they have no heal party, and as you watch this build played pushing the lod/hp is not the highest priority -- shutting down aegis/wards/etc is). If the degen damage isn't high enough to force them to react to it at the expense of offense/prots, the build design as a whole fails. Bad monks may panic simply at the sight of 8 purple bars, but good players have to see the hexes as a threat to the teams survivial and offense before they will react to it more than just spamming lod. So when you reduce the offensive power of the build, you lose much of the reason to run it in this way in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Also, I disagree with the RC not needing mending touch. If you have to split the RC off, he's going to go through hell with no self-condition removal.

Unless he always sticks with the draw, which would be the plan of course. The split would always be the ranger + heal sig war and adding other people as matchups dictate.

JoeKnowMo · Feb 13, 2007, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

why are you running res sig on a monk? Throw SoA or Shielding hands in there, because there are a lot better options to put on your monk than a res sig.

Thanks for that. I put SoA on the RC monk. I could see Mending Touch going in there as well, but SoA seems slightly better at the moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Which is exactly why you choose a top 10 guilds build in the first place, to avoid having to do that - when you don't have the experience to.

I find that copying builds from good guilds is a good way to go for someone new to making team builds. Maybe some improvements can be made from there, maybe not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

In fairness, let's not pretend this is a great build or a particularly original build. This build was slapped together in less than 30 seconds with almost no discussion about bars, synergy/strategy, or anything (which was obvious a few games into the night when we played a hex team and had one holy veil in the build and no other hex removal). It was just what people thought would be fun to run that night.

LOL. Yep, I was surprised that Holy Veil was the only hex counter I saw. I put Expel Hexes in there as an alternative to Migraine b/c of that.

I also didn't see any enchant removal (which may be fine with a pressure build).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

So by no means is this a well planned or perfect build. There is a LOT of room for refinement, so feel free to tinker regardless of the haters.

Will do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

IMO, you are overvaluing eman. In GvG (as opposed to tombs), the defense can compensate a lot for running low on energy with tactics to a large extent (quick tactical withdrawals, linebacking, etc).

Good point about defensive tactics. The extra energy for the monks does seem like overkill, esp w GoLE in there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

So the question is if the extra energy from the paragon makes those two existing hexers better than a third hexer would be. In this build, both the necro and the mesmer have substantial eman already (siget + soul reap, pdrain + sof). I don't run low on energy with the necro very often. The mesmer is trickier, but still limited as much by recharge as by energy. The burning and minor spear damage is ok, but I believe the overall offense is less than a third more self-sufficient toon would be.

I noticed the e-mgmt on both those chars, which again makes the eman less useful.

A third hexer (or the BHA ranger that you guys used) does seem to do more for the team than the eman.

Thanks for the feedback, Blame the Tainted.

It was very helpful this being my first team build and all. I really did learn quite a bit.

It certainly set my head straight on one thing. If the eman is to be of any use, he probably has to battery up all the other players considering most of his skills do very little for the team (other than help him battery frequently).

Since the eman gives a team 3 pips of e-regen while taking away 8 skill slots that could be used for utility, offense, or defense, the number of teammates benefiting has to be 6 or 7. Considering 4 pips is natural e-regen, another 3 pips for 6 or 7 team members (who could make good use of the extra energy) might make it worthwhile to have an eman.

I can also see that the build you guys ran isn't the build for the eman.

I'm thinking that a team consisting of 2 energy intensive Dervs, 3 Casters/Hexers, 2 Monks (maybe even with an offensive skill if they're going to have extra energy), and the eman might be a good build. Once I get that put together, I'll post it and look forward to more comments.

@ Some of the others: Not sure what's prompting some of your responses.

I don't know if I'm coming off as arrogant or dismissive of Cow or altogether superior. That's certainly not how I feel or want to come across as. I enjoy making builds for professions and have been at it for some time. The natural next step for me was to try my hand at a team build. What can I say, armchair quarterbacking is enjoyable.

Blame the Monks · Feb 13, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Thanks for the feedback, Blame the Tainted.

It was very helpful this being my first team build and all. I really did learn quite a bit.

Close. Blame the Taint

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Considering 4 pips is natural e-regen, another 3 pips for 6 or 7 team members (who could make good use of the extra energy) might make it worthwhile to have an eman.

I don't think pips alone is the best way to think of it. In a simple example, which is better -- one hexer with 8 pips through a buffer or two hexers with 4 pips? Clearly the two -- because they will have less recharge issues (especially on the money hexes, like migraine), are less vulnerable to shutdown (esier to shut down one person than two), and have more time to work (two people casting instead of one casting and one buffing). Now of course this discounts the other things the para does, but you see the issue -- eman becomes valuable when your hexers are so limited by energy they can't use their money skills much of the time AND when they cannot sufficiently manage their energy by their own skills/efforts.

The pips alone are a waste if the bar cannot utilize them to churn out the skills you want. In the case of the migraine mes, the extra pips would churn out more phantasms, but not more migraines because migraine already gets spammed on recharge as the priority skill -- recharge limits migraine spam, not energy. So what you are trading is the "opportunity cost" of a second migraine spammer (or in the real build, a broad ranger) for more phantasms and faintheart spam. If you the battery enabled more migraines and other money skills, you could have an argument that more migraines/reapers + the other para stuff > an extra toon. But it does not. This is why eman is not a good trade in this team, as both the nec and the mes can spam their best hexes at will (even if they have to limp by on the phantasm/faint spam during tight stretches). Likewise, the wars don't have any need of the energy. The cripshot (especially with 9 expertise) and the monks can probably use the energy, but that falls back to the second part of the issue -- can they manage their own energy without someone else? In this case, they can. Higher expertise and/or an additional defensive toon if required are better than a battery in this case.

So in the end, the battery isn't churning out anything you want. Because the battery is only providing energy that is largely wasted or not able to be utilized well, a fifth independent toon + better in-house eman on the cripshot is better than a battery.

Bugeater · Feb 13, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

+rep to Blame the Monks for being patient and supporting a good dialog. And to Joe for keeping a good attitude. You beat JR- from closing this thread in it's infancy by 30 minutes.

JoeKnowMo · Feb 14, 2007, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Close. Blame the Taint

D-oh.

I realized it about 5 mins after I posted but was too lazy to come back and fix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

So in the end, the battery isn't churning out anything you want. Because the battery is only providing energy that is largely wasted or not able to be utilized well, a fifth independent toon + better in-house eman on the cripshot is better than a battery.

I changed the attributes on the cripshot as what I had was unworkable.

I guess you're right. With the nerfs to the para elites, I was looking for a way to make use of PiY! but it sure seems like it's not worth it.

The loss of 8 skills for the eman is a problem. And the constraints on the other builds for the eman to be useful is rough (must have quick recharge "money skills", a signet with a 20s or less recharge, must lack decent e-mgmt).

The eman becomes almost worthless if a split is called for. Also shut down is fairly easy on the eman (aegis, shields up, soothing images, spirit shackles, etc.)

I fell in love with the idea of the eman on paper as one can tell my my earlier posts. Too bad it doesn't appear to be as useful as I initially thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

+rep to Blame the Monks for being patient and supporting a good dialog. And to Joe for keeping a good attitude. You beat JR- from closing this thread in it's infancy by 30 minutes.

Yep, props to Blame the Monks for being patient and constructive.

Thanks to JR for keeping this thread open too. I know it violated one of the rules in the sticky that builds must not be crap.

Bankai · Feb 16, 2007, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Just as a tiny side-note: I don't think you can gain a lot of experience by modding the builds of high-ranked guilds, since they're usually modded by their own guildmates already, and usually to perfection.

Blame the Monks · Feb 16, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Just as a tiny side-note: I don't think you can gain a lot of experience by modding the builds of high-ranked guilds, since they're usually modded by their own guildmates already, and usually to perfection.

I disagree 100%. Running a build anyone in the top 20 uses proves it can be run successfully -- from there on stop trying to change the build in response to losses and improve your quality of play. Most players spend FAR too much time trying to find the perfect build or the perfect teammates. You don't need the perfect build/team to win -- too often build adjustment becomes just another procrastination tool to avoid facing up to poor play.